We don't need steering angles where we're going.

"Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street." (demon-xanth)
11/23/2016 at 10:50 • Filed to: None

The car IS the wheelie bar!

DISCUSSION (50)

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
11/23/2016 at 10:56

That’s a lot of money to go slower than a rwd car with a built sbc.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 10:57

kinda what i was thinking

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 10:57

Considering that it’s a professional race car in a class where no SBC I know of is legal nor is RWD... it’s much faster than the RWD SBC car that never made it through tech. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_FWD

JustAnotherG6 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 10:57

Yeah, but a rwd with an sbc can’t compete in fwd drag races...

Future next gen S2000 owner > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
11/23/2016 at 10:58

I’m all for doing dumb stuff but this is way too much money for dumb stuff.

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > JustAnotherG6
11/23/2016 at 11:02

Just like you can’t take an H2R to compete in the Tour De France.

gmctavish needs more space > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
11/23/2016 at 11:03

Kinja'd!!!

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
11/23/2016 at 11:03

But why spend the money to build what is ultimately an inferior layout as dictated by physics. I’m not knocking the craftsmanship, I’m questioning the class’s existence altogether.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
11/23/2016 at 11:05

But that’s taking a motorcycle to a bicycle race, this is like taking a unicycle to the Tour de France.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > JustAnotherG6
11/23/2016 at 11:05

Why have them at all?

JustAnotherG6 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 11:06

Some people just want to watch the world (or their money) burn.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > JustAnotherG6
11/23/2016 at 11:08

I guess, it’s their money, but it certainly seems like a massive waste of time and effort to go slower.

JustAnotherG6 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 11:16

Agreed.

Comes over to help work on your car and only drinks beer > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 11:18

You’re thinking about the situation from a racer’s perspective. Consider that there might be a perspective different from your own. An engineer’s perspective. “What is the absolute most I can do within a specific set of limits?” Is a tremendously rewarding challenge to an engineering-type mind. Could they go faster with a different layout? Sure, but then they’ve done what everyone else has done 10000 times already. To take a situation, put in a few limits or parameters that make you think outside the box, and then see what you can come up with are things that give an engineer a stiffy, not specifically the speed itself.

PS9 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 11:23

Because it’s their money and that’s what they want to do with it. They think it’s fun. There are better ways to go fast, but so what? That this exists doesn’t hinder those other forms of motorsport.

I’m going to offer a nugget of wisdom repeated by a very learned fellow oppo here: Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean the something sucks.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Comes over to help work on your car and only drinks beer
11/23/2016 at 11:32

You should never discount the “is it better to do nothing” option.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > PS9
11/23/2016 at 11:36

I’m not saying it sucks, I’m saying it’s a pointless pursuit of a false goal.

PS9 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 11:42

You’ve just stated why you think it sucks. You think all of those things are bad and are associated with this activity, and offering that as grounds for why others should stop doing that and do something else.

it’s a pointless pursuit of a false goal.

Yeah, so what? That’s every fun thing to do in a nutshell. It’s not pointless to do something you enjoy, so keep in mind that the great variety of things people enjoy doing on this planet don’t suddenly become trivial wastes of time for everyone when you’re the one who doesn’t want to do them.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > PS9
11/23/2016 at 11:49

If I build a carbon fiber and titanium penny-farthing bike, I may have the fastest penny-farthing, but an old 70's Schwinn road bike will still beat it. I’m all for engineering, but when it becomes an exercise is engineering for the sake of engineering it’s really just masturbation. It feels like you’re accomplishing something, but you’re just playing with yourself.

CobraJoe > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 11:53

There is always going to be someone faster than you.

That as a fundamental law in the auto enthusiast world.

Got a quick street car? There’s a built Honda Civic that will beat you.

Own that built Civic? There’s a built muscle car that will beat you.

Own that muscle car? There’s a built street/strip machine that will beat you.

On and on it goes. Dedicated drag racer-alcohol powered funny car-nitro funny car-top fuel-jet drags-salt flat unlimited classes... On and on it goes.

The only way to “Win” at being the fastest is to draw arbitrary lines to create categories.

Shankems > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
11/23/2016 at 11:55

Can’t they just run in reverse?!?

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > CobraJoe
11/23/2016 at 12:00

But therein lies the issue, there are cheaper, better, ways to go faster. Why begin with a compromise?

PS9 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 12:09

If someone enjoys penny farthings and want the fastest, lightest one, then what’s the problem? Their time, their energy, their money, their decision. There are faster bikes. There are even faster still non-human powered bikes that will hang with a Veyron. But to someone who doesn’t like any of that and will enjoy the P(enny Farthing)1 the most out of all of those options, how much better everything else is doesn’t matter.

I’m all for engineering, but when it becomes an exercise is engineering for the sake of engineering it’s really just masturbation.

We do not build these machines for no reason. They exist to serve us in some capacity. Sometimes that means the fastest machine that can be built. Sometimes that means an arbitrary choice because that’s what someone likes and will enjoy the most, and that last option is not an indication of deficiency on the part of the choice itself, the engineers, or the person financing the project.

Let’s apply this argument everywhere there is engineering for it’s own sake; goodbye all forms of motorsport, goodbye extreme hypercars, goodbye V8 power, goodbye sports cars (don’t need sports cars since there are no car sports anymore) and hello machine that does absolutely nothing but get me to and from work safely and practically while consuming as little gas as possible.

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 12:22

For the same reason there are 250CC, 600CC and liter bike race classes. Your argument is akin to saying the only tractor pull class should be the unlimited since every other class is inferior. And only Trophy Trucks should run the Baja 1000 since the 7300 class is an inferior configuration. They built the highest performing car they could to the rulebook written for the class they chose to race in.

Brett > PS9
11/23/2016 at 12:33

If someone enjoys Penny Farthing bikes, they are a nut case. There’s not a bicycle ever built that’s slower or less safe, completely ignoring the weight and difficulty to ride them in any practical capacity.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > PS9
11/23/2016 at 12:34

You misunderstand my point. I’m saying that there is a point at which a fwd drag car becomes entirely pointless. You don’t see a hypercar running a naturally aspirated 2 cylinder, a Hellcat doesn’t run 155 section width tires, and sports cars aren’t built to be able to plow snow off the streets in northern Canada. And yes, compromise for the sake of flexibility is great, but compromising against the primary goal is just silly.

just-a-scratch > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 12:36

One builds something like this to win in a racing class. I don’t think there is any real expectation to be the fastest drag racer ever, just the fastest in the class.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
11/23/2016 at 12:46

No, because there’s a difference between tiers of performance and engineering yourself into a corner. You race 250 until you’re ready to move up to 600 and then 1000 or you stay at 250 and enjoy yourself. I’m saying that spending a ton of money trying to make a Vespa try to keep up with a liter bike is a frivolous pursuit. If you ride a Vespa and you want to go faster for $5k, buy a used liter bike, don’t build a carbon fiber turbocharged Vespa.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > just-a-scratch
11/23/2016 at 12:48

I’m the fastest person under 24yrs old wearing a plaid shirt in my office right now, where’s my trophy?

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 13:14

You can go faster in a Porsche GT Cup than you can in a NASCAR truck, so are the people in trucks just wasting their time and money? THIS CAR IS NOT COMPETING WITH SBC NOR RWD CARS! It is in a FWD, I4 class. It only competes with FWD I4 cars. So they built a crazy awesome FWD I4 car.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
11/23/2016 at 13:21

Yes, all of NASCAR is a waste. Also, I would still go watch this FWD racing, because the cars (while silly) are still cool.

just-a-scratch > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 13:30

I hope you didn’t lose that trophy already. It was on your desk. It’s shaped like a paperclip.

The prizes in such small local competitions aren’t very good, I know.

Jayvincent > CobraJoe
11/23/2016 at 13:31

There’s a Blackbird story in here somewhere...

CobraJoe > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 13:42

First of all, you’re fooling yourself if you’re thinking you can build a RWD SBC powered 10second drag car for “cheap”.

Secondly, Every expensive racecar started out as a “cheaper, better way to go faster”. (ok, maybe not the prototype classes or Formula 1).

Thirdly, once you’ve already sunk more than a few grand into a modified car, are you completely sure it is cheaper to sell it at a loss to buy a new car to sink more money into just to go a little bit faster?

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > CobraJoe
11/23/2016 at 13:50

I think the point at which you start building a tube frame and go “hmm, I could put this engine trans combo up here or I could put it back there” is that point.

Also, rail dragster chassis are cheap and light.

tromoly > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
11/23/2016 at 14:06

I get the “why” of building FWD dragsters, I just shake my head at the thought of not using weight transfer to the extent that you’re actively fighting against it. Props to guys that build them, just not my cup of tea.

Spoon II > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 14:09

Now I want to build a carbon fiber, turbocharged Vespa

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Spoon II
11/23/2016 at 14:11

Obviously, because that sounds like a blast!

CobraJoe > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 14:17

Take a look at that car again, it’s not a tube frame, it’s a door slammer. It was built around an actual production vehicle. There still would need to be a massive amount of hacking the unibody to place that engine anywhere else or to convert it to RWD. Creating a new rail dragster would put the car in a very different class, and likely all of that money you spent on engine/trans/tires/bodywork would be wasted again.

As for this comment:

No, because there’s a difference between tiers of performance and engineering yourself into a corner.

Engineering isn’t always about finding which layout works the best (though it is an overarching theme). 99% of the time, an engineer works to create the best solution within a specified set of parameters . Sometimes those parameters are the rules of a specific class of race car, sometimes budgetary constraints, or sometimes even the very laws of physics itself.

And speaking as an engineer, sometimes it is just more fun to try and figure out how to make the best of a less than ideal situation, it forces creativity and trials. You want the fastest car for $5k, that’s easy, get a C4 vette and put nitrous on it (or any number of similar answers). But if you want the fastest FWD 4cyl production based car with an engine from the same manufacturer, that will make us think.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > CobraJoe
11/23/2016 at 14:38

At this point, that’s a tube chassis. Also, once you have to have that many qualifiers after the word “fastest”, it’s not very impressive anymore.

CobraJoe > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 15:07

At this point, that’s a tube chassis.

No. Please learn the difference.

Also, once you have to have that many qualifiers after the word “fastest”, it’s not very impressive anymore.

You forgot my very first point.

Every car that is “the fastest” has that many qualifiers after it. Even top fuel cars are “The fastest” over 1000 foot with a 90degree V8 engine between 490cid and 500cid, a single camshaft, 2 valves per cylinder... etc... etc. There are actually 11 pages dedicated to the requirements that are needed to be met to be considered a Top Fuel car. And no, Top Fuel dragsters are not the fastest if you take away those considerations. Jet cars can do a 1/4 mile in less time at higher speeds, and some Bonneville cars can beat even those speeds.

There literally is no “fastest” of anything unless you have some qualifiers.

OKcarburetor > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
11/23/2016 at 15:11

Those appear to be the same car with two different drive train setups. What’s going on here?

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > CobraJoe
11/23/2016 at 15:16

Just for fun, one of my favorite stories as quoted from XKCD:

“The official record for fastest manmade object is the Helios 2 probe, which reached about 70 km/s in a close swing around the Sun. But it’s possible the actual holder of that title is a two-ton metal manhole cover.

The cover sat atop a shaft at an underground nuclear test site operated by Los Alamos as part of Operation Plumbbob. When the one-kiloton nuke went off below, the facility effectively became a nuclear potato cannon , giving the cap a gigantic kick. A high-speed camera trained on the lid caught only one frame of it moving upward before it vanished—which means it was moving at a minimum of 66 km/s. The cap was never found.

66 km/s is about six times escape velocity, but contrary to the linked blog’s speculation, it’s unlikely the cap ever reached space. Newton’s impact depth approximation suggests that it was either destroyed completely by impact with the air or slowed and fell back to Earth.”

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > OKcarburetor
11/23/2016 at 15:29

Not sure, but the Mickey Thompsons on a Toyo sponsored car makes me wonder as well. I’m guessing they changed for drivetrain reliability (eg: using a powerglide trans) or better weight transfer as the second is basically a mid engine dragster with the driver’s seat on the wheelie bar and the nose cut off.

CobraJoe > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 16:06

That is a pretty cool story, and I love XKCD.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > CobraJoe
11/23/2016 at 16:28

No matter what we build, a 2 ton manhole cover will always be faster.

Jayhawk Jake > PS9
11/23/2016 at 16:36

It does suck though. I suppose more power to them for enjoying it, but that doesn’t make it suck any less

CobraJoe > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/23/2016 at 16:44

True.

So, what should we do about it? I’m just going to go on building whatever car I feel like building and ignore the haters. It’ll never be a record holder, but I’ll have fun with it.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > CobraJoe
11/23/2016 at 19:34

You do you, haters gonna hate.

The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
12/05/2016 at 16:05

Also having the engine farther forward help with traction off the line.